Unlike Esquire, I don't believe America is under imminent threat from the spread of shariah, or that radical Islamism is slowly creeping under the nation's consciousness, spreading its venomous roots without our knowing it. I chalk his fear up to the conservative's typical tendency to see impending and apocalyptic threats everywhere and anywhere to the status quo. (You can see a similar impulse in Sharron Angle's hilarious 1993 letter to Harry Reid about the End Of Days that the Clinton tax hikes will no doubt bring to the polity. Right.)
I don't think there's anything wrong with opposing change as a principle; I've read enough Burkean texts exposing the limits of human agency to appreciate the stand. But we, as humans, are also cursed with the logic of scarcity, and if we think our greatest threat comes from a creeping Islamofascism in this country, we'll likely do things -- like pass absolutely pointless, political stunts like the anti-shariah law Newt Gingrich has proposed -- that will hog up time for genuinely useful legislation (it exists! I tell you, those bills exist! Cap and trade, anyone? Comprehensive immigration reform? No?)
I do have two thoughts I wanted to discuss: first, re: shariah, Esquire earlier said he generally opposed its notion that God should be recognized as the fount of all laws. But what does that mean for, say, Sarah Palin's recent claim that one can trace a straight line from America's Constitution to the Ten Commandments and Judeo-Christian principles? Forget that Palin said it; it's an opinion widely expressed among conservative circles, e.g. the Constitution is "divinely inspired," or that limited government is a uniquely Christian notion (as Dinesh D'Souza has argued)? What's the difference here and the logic of shariah, other than we're talking different gods? (I'm not trying to be a smart ass here; I'm genuinely trying to tease out some principles on religion/state jurisprudence.)
There was a woman quoted in The New York Times last week who said she had no problem with freedom of religion, except -- and this was a whopper of an exception -- she didn't consider Islam a "religion." Instead, she saw it as a political ideology wrapped in divine pretenses. OK, but what religion doesn't lead its followers to certain political decisions? Couldn't you make a similar charge against Catholics that they can't be trusted with power because they only do the bidding of the Pope? (Wait -- don't tell me, people did make this argument? You don't say.)
Second thought: My bigger problem with focusing on Islam like it's the return of Darth Vader is that it leads certain activists to hold Muslims to higher standards than other communities. We frequently hear about the various crimes committed against women that are routinely accepted, even sanctioned, in traditional Muslim communities. But we rarely hear that a pattern of abuse and domination against women has been the modus operandi of human history and has changed only recently, and that too only in select nations in the Western world blessed with immense national wealth.
If this debate follows this pattern, it also tends to view Muslims chiefly as people who regard religion as the foundation of their personality. That may no doubt be true for certain Muslims, but I reckon -- and this is based just on anecdotal experience -- that a fair number of Muslims place their religion alongside a plethora of other concerns and identity markers (gender, age, family, culture, language, nationalism, politics).
This isn't an argument for cultural relativism, so please don't throw that little bugaboo at me. I'm all for accepting certain universal truths that cross over all cultures, and I'm sure you'll find plenty of activists within Muslim countries who agree with that. But liberalism -- and by this, I mean classical liberalism, of Locke and Mill -- has a nasty habit of proclaiming on the one hand that all people are created equal, but then, in the fine print, poking and prodding certain communities and saying "you're not ready for it." We see this logic in Locke's works, for instance, when he talks about what kinds of rigorous education humans need to fully practice rationality (and, thus, exercise full political rights), thus undercutting the democracy of his idea of government by consent.
It just seems silly to me that on the one hand, we, as a country, are supposed to be fighting for burgeoning democracies in two Muslim-majority countries, and on the other, supposed to believe that this religion and many of its proponents believe a philosophy that is fundamentally anti-democratic. It's also ironic that both the Afghan and Iraqi Constitutions -- you know, the ones we have spent billions of dollars and had thousands of troops die for -- recognize Islam as the chief inspiration for all their laws. (Or do I exaggerate?)
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3 hours ago
I'll have to read through this again tomorrow to give it a thoughtful reply (I'm tired right now), but quickly on your comment about Catholics (of which I am one):
ReplyDeleteI think this is a specious comparison. Yes, Catholics were accused of having divided loyalties, but it was asinine predjudice from people (WASPs) who have never understood the philosophy of the Church (these same people still to this day will argue vociferously TO Catholics that they worship Mary. They're morons, whose arguments aren't based off of any understanding of Catholicism.)
On the idea that Christianity is as political of an ideology as Islam: they aren't comparable, and the argument falls into an intellectually lazy position one often sees that posits that all religions are more or less the same. But they aren't. Religions have tenets, and in this instance they're very different.
Christianity, and specifically Catholicism strongly believes in the idea to "give unto Caeser that which is Caeser's. Give unto God that which is God's." Jesus advocated this idea in order to instruct his followers not make themselves a political entity and challenge the rulers of the world (mostly Rome, but the actual ruler itself was immaterial). Why? Because the Kingdom of God does not reign on Earth. He did not descend from Heaven to create Heaven on Earth. He came to be the bridge for us to enter Heaven and leave this world behind.
Now, this was most assuredly not how the corrupt Churches of the early/Middle Ages acted given their abused/power-mongering, but that behavior was not based out of the teachings of the Bible. It was simply the example of corruption following power. The point being: Christianity in philosphy is opposed to its political establishment. Christianity is a religion and power of the next world; not this one. It's one of its fundamental teachings. (In that sense, I think Christianity as an idea played a large role in providing the soil from which Liberalism could emerge, though I don't wish to imply that it had an active role in that process.)
Islam on the other-hand has no such tenet of "giving unto Caeser". It is very much dedicated to the idea that there can be no separation of the the Divine from the present temporal world. Sayyid Qutb and --I'd wager--pretty much every scholar of Islam/Sharia would argue in the unitary nature of the world. There is only Islam. Qutb, for example, wrote at length about how Liberalism, with its separation of government from religion is heresy and must be destroyed. Right now there is only the Dar al Islam (World of Islam) and the Dar al Harb (World of War [all areas outside of Islam's domination] which must be destroyed). But the end-game is that only the Dar al Islam remains, under Sharia.
It's not surprising really that Islam would be formulated as a unity of religion/politics. Afterall, Mohammed was a politician/warlord bent on gaining power. This notion isn't just argued by fringe elements within Islam; it's a central idea to the religion.
But at any rate, on this specific point, Christianity and Islam couldn't be further from each other.
Quickly on other points:
1)I think Bush, et al. did us a great disservice by continually arguing that we're trying to instill democracy abroad. We aren't (or we shouldn't be, anyway). We're trying to instill Liberal values. Democracy is a meaningless idea; the Communist Party of China functions democratically. We are trying to impart on those societies the values inherent to Liberalism such as individual rights and protections, equality, freedoms of religion/speech/etc..These are not "democratic" values.
I more of less think it's a fools errand though so long as Islam exists in its current state as practiced. It needs its own Reformation. If it ever sheds its unitary viewpoint, there could be hope for the project, but that's a long time coming if at all.
So, when you say you'll leave a more thoughtful reply at a later time, I'm right in regarding this latest post as completely thoughtless, yes? (Joke, joke.)
ReplyDeleteRe: your point about limited government and Catholicism (which I also practice; obligatory secret handshake) -- I like that Jesus quote as much as the next guy, but I don't think it carries as much weight as you lean on it. The way you put it implies Catholics should completely ignore political establishments and the rules promulgated in this world, but that's not the case. The Church has told us there are certain principles -- e.g. when life begins -- that must be followed in this world as well. It seems difficult to think on the one hand that Catholics believe a particular activity is a sin, but don't want to see abolishing said activity in the current world because heaven's the real prize.
I'm also heartened that you think the charges against Catholicism were based only on prejudice; it's always nice to see a conservative admit just once that people can be bigots. (Again, I joke.)
Listen, I don't know much about Islam or its recent evolution, but I do want to make the following points:
1. Even if what you say about Islam's notion on state/church jurisprudence is correct, it doesn't necessarily bear out in recent politics. We know, for instance, that a socialist, secular Baathist set of regimes set themselves up in Syria and Iraq, and a socialist, Arabist discourse also took hold in Egypt. My point is that reforming Islam may be beside the point; for many Muslims -- at least for a period of time in the 20th century -- religion wasn't necessarily guiding political choices. (Modern Turkey would be another example.)
2. It's astounding to me that you quote Sayyid Qutb as your leading source on Islam. No doubt, the guy has a big following in the Middle East (which doesn't account for all Muslims in the world). But there are a dizzying array of important imams and other Muslim leaders who disagree with his teachings -- Islam's decentralized nodes of authority ensures no one man can claim to be the final arbiter on religious matters.
2A. As long as we're talking about the need to induce a reformation in Islam, it's important to note the theory that the recent outbreak of the Qutb-line of reasoning stems from the sustained political repression in Middle East countries. That left the mosque and, by extension, religion, as the only possible alternative for a pure expression of politics unsullied by human failures. (A naive belief, to be sure, but not completely hard to understand, right?) I mention this because we shouldn't think current levels of extremism in Islam have existed in the same form since time immemorial.
That was, partly, the idea behind George Bush's push in the Middle East. You'll have to explain the difference between "democracy" and "individual rights" -- I know, I know; direct democracy is different from a Republic, and certain rights are beyond the touch of the majority. But I don't think anyone would use the word "democracy" to describe the Communist Party of China. The concept implies a respect for individuals -- as do the constitutions in Iraq and Afghanistan, by the way.
Couple points:
ReplyDeleteI didn't quote Qutb at THE leading scholar, like you assert. I mentioned him as one of the leading scholars; which he is. Egyptian acolytes of Qutb and Saudi followers of al-Wahab comprise both the leadership of al Qaeda and thanks to our friends the Saudis, the fastest growing sects.
Btw, I know you were kidding, but what makes you think that I don't acknowledge bigotry as possible? I've met racists and bigots of all kinds. Including scores of Liberals who have so much hate in their heart for conservatives that I found it shocking.
But anyway, I specifically said that "all scholars" would agree with that basic tenet of Islam (ie the unity concept). While there might be one or two figures who nuance that, I think my argument is correct.
Re: Catholics. I guess I have two responses:
One, it seems to me that there is a big difference between a religion commenting on political issues and a religion that wants to be the only political institution and arbiter of justice. I have yet to hear the modern Catholic Church make any sort of claims on removing all other religions and controlling all aspects of society.
Two, I don't view either the Church's position or how I described it as implying that Catholics should ignore all political things. It's simply that it acknowledges that there are spheres where the Church has influence, and spheres where the Church believes it has no business commenting (which is the majority of things that happen in our temporal world). In those latter spheres, it's up to the individual to decide on their own how to make determinations.
Obviously there are moral issues that arise in our world where the Church is obligated to comment (though not to dictate), but it isn't advocating that it have sole purview.
Afterall, the Church advocates that individuals have free will to choose their course. The Church is there to offer guidence on the path; not to determine it.
A thought occurred to me. I've actually never read specifically about it, but I suspect that Islam doesn't believe in the concept of free will. Do either of you know?
More on point, Christianity doesn't have instruments to meter justice. Islam, as a relio-political instition by necessity does (afterall, how do you run society without bodies to coerce behavior?)
Anyway, it's precisely that the Church acknowledges its limitations that is my point. Islam makes no distinctions and claims no boundaries.
Particularly as a member of our little known society of Mary-worshipers and secret agents bent on Global Papism, I'm surprised that you would think that Islam and Catholicism/Christianity are the same in their outlook when it comes to this world.
While I find these conversations interesting, it seems clear to me that our totally different viewpoints of what Islam even is is going to be a limiting factor in our ever understanding each other's viewpoints.
I mean, if Islam is no different than Catholicism, then either we have nothing to worry whatsoever about with Islam (and 9/11 couldn't have happened, really), or we REALLY have to worry about us Catholics...
Oh, about the rise of Qutb...
ReplyDeleteI would argue that it wasn't only the existence of oppression that spurred it. It was the existence of modern advances in Islamic society as well (particularly the influence of Liberal ideals).
It's why Ataturk is so hated by Islamists.
Re: Democracy.
ReplyDeleteI think you're equating democracy with Liberalism. Democracy has no intrinsic normative value. It's a mechanism that doesn't even establish the value of the individual vote (that value is established by the type of democracy; ie Liberal Democracy). For example, a system where everyone gets to vote, but one leader can veto the majority decision, is still a democracy. Or take China.
Experts on China talk a lot of how the Chinese Communist Party functions more or less democratically. It doesn't really matter that there isn't universal suffrage. The ruling class is still determined through democratic vote by a fairly large group of citizens.
Or look to the history of the term "Soviet." It was a council aimed at direct democracy. And it's why the USSR had a Communist Congress.
Anyway, all the concepts that pop into American's heads when they hear "democracy" are really a reflection of Liberalism.
This discussion is quickly spiraling out of control, so let me just make a couple of quick clarifications:
ReplyDelete1. I don't think Islam and Catholicism are the same thing, and I don't accept that all religions basically share the same tenets. But I do think you narrowly interpret the role that the Catholic Church envisions for itself in civil society. It doesn't just "suggest" to individuals that they should make up their own mind about, say, abortion; it actively promotes legislation that restricts the activity and warns its adherents that they face eternal damnation for indulging it. That doesn't remove the ability to make a decision, but it sure as all hell haunts it. (Christopher Hitchens makes this point frequently in his anti-Christian tirades, and while I generally don't like his atheistic stuff, I can appreciate the irony and sarcasm in his voice when he takes on this particular subject.)
Secondly, I know very little about Islam, but I do frequently hear that quote about "respecting people of The Book," when the issue of freedom of religion comes up in the Quran. It's just a line, and I don't know what it's worth, but as a Christian who worshiped in the Middle East for about two years, and went to a Catholic-run school, I can tell you I had no problems. Of course, I wasn't in Saudi Arabia. It doesn't automatically follow to me, then, that Muslim-majority countries are incapable of embracing liberalism or its tenets. (Then again, it's an interesting debate -- one that Stanley Fish often evokes -- whether or not liberalism really allows freedom of religion, or instead simply sublimates it under its own discourses of "neutral viewpoints" and so on.)
I just don't regard Islam as a problem; there are plenty of Muslims in India, for instance, who happily exist in a democratic system, as do millions of others in Indonesia. No doubt, there are religious parties in those countries that seek to introduce more religious minded legislation, but I'm not entirely sure I see the difference in those cases and an evangelical Christian in other countries seeking to ban abortion or pornography or gambling or alcoholism or the death penalty or contraception or the Sunday workday or tax exemptions for religious properties or...you get my drift. In short, I don't regard Islam as a problem to be dealt with, only the contorted version that has erupted in a particular region due to some very recent geo-political, economic and other cultural trends.
Finally: I don't want to argue about whether or not China is a democracy. I think it's a semantic bore that doesn't affect our larger discussion. I only bring it because I think George Bush invaded two countries to spread liberalism, not simply "democracy." That's all.
Also, when you say Islam has bodies that mete out judicial punishments -- what, exactly, are you talking about?
ReplyDelete"It's simply that it acknowledges that there are spheres where the Church has influence, and spheres where the Church believes it has no business commenting (which is the majority of things that happen in our temporal world). In those latter spheres, it's up to the individual to decide on their own how to make determinations."
ReplyDeleteUh, am I wrong, Esquire, or is that notion a product of a post-Vatican II Catholic Church?